The Times – So many questions with Gwede Mantashe

Chris Barron Interviews Mantashe Sunday Times 15th August 2009

ANC Youth League president Julius Malema has criticised the appointment of ‘minorities’ to lead economic portfolios. Chris Barron asked ANC secretary-general Gwede Mantashe …

Why are the economic portfolios led by minorities?

I don’t know what is informing that observation. In the ANC we don’t have the word “minorities” in our vocabulary. We talk about the African majority in particular, the blacks in general and the people of South Africa. That’s why the ANC is not a multiracial organisation but a nonracial one. Blacks in general would include people who are conveniently described as minorities. Secondly, you cannot narrow the economic cluster to finance, trade and industry and economic development, and conveniently and expediently regard mining as not part of the economic cluster, or energy, transport, communications, agriculture, land and rural development — all these portfolios are part of the economic cluster. So there is no economic cluster that is dominated by minorities.

What do you make of Malema’s criticism?

Until we have a discussion in the ANC, I can’t make any sense of it.

Has there not been a discussion?

There has, but he was not there, and I cannot make sense of his argument until he is part of the debate.

Haven’t you asked him for clarification?

He is a member of the national working committee and national executive committee. He doesn’t need to be asked for clarification. He will raise the issue in those structures if he has anything to raise.

Why wasn’t he part of the debate?

I’m sure he can give you a better explanation.

He raised the issue in the first place. What’s the point of debating it without him?

If I raise an issue in the ANC, I don’t raise it for myself. The ANC must grapple with the matter, and the ANC is not myself.

Was this ever flagged as a potential problem area?

I don’t know what the problem area is. Is it Pravin Gordhan? He is not black enough? He is a non-African?

According to Malema.

I would have a problem with that. Gordhan is black and has an impeccable track record in the struggle.

Clearly there is disagreement in the ANC about this.

I don’t know if there is disagreement. The policy of the ANC talks of Africans in particular, blacks in general. I don’t think the appointments in the cabinet have deviated from that principle.

Doesn’t the fact that Malema has raised the issue suggest that there is disagreement about minorities?

No. There is no such term in the ANC’s vocabulary.

So why does Malema use it?

The ANC is an organisation with policies. It’s one thing if you are debating, but it’s a totally different issue if you want to appreciate the policies of the ANC. The ANC espouses non-racism. We are not an Africanist organisation.

Aren’t you being a bit disingenuous?

No. The national democratic revolution has always been about the liberation of Africans in particular, and blacks in general. That is the majority of people who were oppressed, and therefore that informed the policies of the ANC.

You say this issue has been discussed by the NWC?

Yes. And concluded.

In what sense?

Concluded in the sense that we reminded ourselves of what we stand for. One of the things we reminded ourselves was that if the ANC begins to deviate from non-racialism, nobody will defend that.

So, as far as you’re concerned, the issue has been dealt with?

It was dealt with, it was debated, it was closed.

Why does minister Lindiwe Sisulu say it still needs to be debated?

You want me to talk for Sisulu, you want me to talk for Malema. I can’t speak for them.

There are obviously senior people in the ANC who don’t agree that it is closed.

The matter was debated in the national working committee. Minister Sisulu was part of that committee. It was concluded.

So why is it still coming up?

Anybody who wants to reopen this reopens a bigger debate than just the question of the economic cluster and minorities. He or she is questioning the position of the ANC on non-racialism.

Is that debate going to be reopened?

Nobody has asked for it to be reopened.

Minister Sisulu says it must be.

I don’t know if she said that to you. There are structures of the ANC where she should say that.

Do you think there are senior people in the ANC who don’t agree with this policy?

Then those important people will raise a policy shift within the structures of the ANC.