Durban police constable Kwesi Matenjwa confesses – on the morning of Saturday, 1 November – how “the great white shark”, City Manager Michael Sutcliffe, ordered his unit to evict (without alternative accommodation) 47 desperate people, mostly from the Eastern DRC. Sutcliffe accused the refugees – mainly women and children – of being involved in “crime”, offering no evidence. But Matenjwa explained that a political rally on 4 November and the 2010 World Cup were the real reasons police tore down plastic shelters and confiscated refugee belongings – including vital immigration papers – without warning. In the process of their attempted eviction, the refugees’ human rights were “drowned”, Matenjwa admitted, a not uncommon occurrence for a Durban metro police force that regularly shoots to kill. The refugees vow to remain in Albert Park until they have a chance at dignity.
Below is an excerpt from the transcript of the interview with constable Matenjwa, to listen to the audio interview please click here.
CCS interview with Durban SAPS constable Kwesi Matenjwa, Albert Park 1 November 2008:
1) Where did this instruction come from?
Q: Mr Matenjwa, we were just wondering, where did this instruction come
from?
A: Eh, professor, we have been following a chain of command. Only, we
have been given instructions by the captain.
Q: Is Captain Ragavan on his way?
A: We’ve been waiting for him.
Q: And the superintendent, who did he get the instruction from?
A: He got the instruction from the Area Commissioner, the chief of
metro police.
Q: And who did he get the instruction from, council?
A: On the fourth of November there’s going to be Imbizo, which is more
or less like a rally.
Q: Who’s coming for that?
A: Our MEC, Mr Zweli Mkhize, to attend to the so-called informal
traders. Let’s just bear in mind that the elections are around the
corner. So each and every
political party is canvassing.
Q: How does that explain treating these people so badly?
A: It’s that 2010 (Soccer World Cup) is around the corner. Because 2010
is going to be here, so the people from the so-called other countries,
when they come to this country, they must have this image that South
Africa, the city of Durban is clean, that there are no vagrant people,
there are no traders in the streets. So that is why people like us are
detailed to deal with certain complaints.
Q: Who made the complaints?
A: No one ever made a complaint. We just received instructions from the
captain who received instruction from the superintendent, all the way to
our area commissioner, Mr Nzama.
Q: Who did Mr Nzama receive instructions from, was he told by the
council, or the city manager?
A: Mr Nzama, with his authority, I cannot say where he got his instruction.
Q: But you told me earlier on that Mr Michael Sutcliffe gave you strict
instructions to move the people.
A: Yes, he gave the instructions to our captain. Because yesterday we
failed to comply with his instruction. Because yesterday we were
supposed to come here and demolish this place. But because yesterday we
decided not to do so because of our sympathy, because we are also human
beings – we feel for these people.
[speaking on two way radio in Zulu – Hello Bheki, how are you? (Bheki’s
reply not heard) I’m still charging my phone by one kweri-kweri]
2) I failed to comply with instructions
A: Yesterday I was instructed by the same supervisor that we are waiting
for to come here and demolish the place
Q: Is he a team leader of your police unit?
A: Yes. And yesterday at about 20 past nine I said to him “The people
are asleep and they have kids and women that are expecting. How do you
say to me ‘you must demolish the place’?”
Q: And what did he say?
A: He said he would get back to me, that he’s going to phone the chief,
the station manager. And this morning when I came to work again he
instructed me to come here because yesterday I failed to comply with
instructions. That will result in him charging me for failing to obey
instructions.
Q: Have you had to do this kind of thing before with any other refugees?
A: No, this is my first time.
3) Human rights drowned
Q: Did they tell you about the rights of these people? Did Captain
Ragavan inform you of the people’s rights? Because, you know, if you
take someone away then they have to have somewhere to go to.
A: Yes, yes. And I’ve just informed our call center that we’ve got a
situation here and they must inform our so-called spokesperson because
I’m not a spokesperson of Metro Police.
Q: Yes, but did they tell you about the rights of people, that if they
are taken away they must have somewhere to go?
A: Yes. I’ll tell you one thing, about the technicalities of the law
and the constitution of this country I am well aware of it. It’s just
that, at some stage, you get thrown in a deep ocean, in a deep sea
whereby you cannot even swim.
Q: And the human rights have drowned with you too, eh?
A: Yes, they have drowned in the sea. No matter how good you are in
swimming, you can’t even swim because you are just a small fish in a
deep ocean where only the big boys, the sharks, the so-called ‘white
sharks’ exist in the environment.
Q: The white shark? Who is the great ‘white shark’?
A: (laughs) That’s what I’m saying. You know, I’m a human being and I
don’t want to say things that at the end of the day, maybe they will
bring fire to me.
4) Violence on violence
Q: I think we’re all in agreement that this should not be happening, am
I correct?
A: Thank you, thank you. But what I am saying is that I don’t want to
put my head on a neck (gestures as if putting his head on a chopping
block) for something that I know personally is political. If it was a
matter that (gestures as if taking something from someone) of a man
being robbed and the suspects are here and I’ve apprehended the
suspects… I’m sorry to say this, but that is when a policeman they use
it, because a man has been robbed, his camera has been taken away, his
cell phone has been taken away. I’m sorry to say this but before that
person that robbed him gets into those cells, I always say that he must
be taught a lesson. I’m sorry to say this.
Q: What kind of lesson?
A: As much as you can say it is unlawful, but tell me why must you be
inhuman, treat another human being like an animal. So, to me you’re
like an animal that belongs in the zoo.
Q: Who? The criminal?
A: Yes.
Q: So you’re trying to say violence on violence…
A: Yes, violence on violence. That is my philosophy. So, in this case
I failed to implement violence because there is no violence. These
people, they are just like me; maybe from another country or called by
other names. It is within my powers that I can say no. I, myself, am
in trouble for failing to take instructions from above, that’s why I
said no, we will not go anywhere, we will sit here, we will stay here
until our supervisor comes. Then he must consult with your people to
see why we are told to come here and tell these people to move away.
5) Orders from above
A: I don’t disagree with what you are saying, but I am only following
orders
Q: And you are fairly sure that you have to follow these because they
come from the very top, is that Mike Sutcliffe?
A: Thank you, thank you.
Q: Can we not persuade Mike Sutcliffe that he’s violating rights here?
We are trying to phone him up here, and he’s not answering his phone.
A: I’ll tell you one thing, the reason he is not answering his phone is
because he is very aware of what is happening here.
6) What rights do these people have?
(Captain Ragavan speaking) I was told that we had an operation to do
because we know that Monday, the 4th there is going to be an imbizo.
And we was told that the xenophobia people who are here with these tents
must be cleared.
Q: But was it coming from the council or from the city manager or…?
A: Coming from the council, direct business support themselves.
Q: From whom? From business support?
A: They’re from the council, yes.
Q: That would be the deputy mayor? He’s part of business support, right?
A: It will definitely be coming from Mr. Sutcliffe himself, he will
definitely know about this. I got it from my officer.
Q: Did they instruct you about the rights of the people to have
accommodation somewhere else?
A: In fact, when they pitched up these tents here they were told a long
time ago. This was on a temporary basis.
Q: Yeah, but what rights do the people here have? Do they have any
rights? Their shelter has just been taken away.
A: They were warned about this
Q: That today, November 1 their things would be taken away? Can you
tell us when the warning was made that on November 1 their shelter would
be removed?
A: How are you all related to this?
Q: We are in solidarity with them.
7) Instructions from ‘the great white shark’
(Captain Ragavan cont.) I agree with whatever you’re saying, but at the
end of the day, we just take instructions. These guys take
instructions. I take my instructions from above.
Q: But we’re trying to figure out where these instructions came from?
A: The instructions probably come from the big man himself.
Q: Who is the big man?
A: Our boss, Michael Sutcliffe
(Constable Kwesi Matenjwa) I can’t even say a word because I feel like
I’m being cornered, I feel like I’m being used.
Q: Who is using you?
A: My boss. I’m not a boss of my own, I’m given instructions. If it
was Kwesi’s world, things would go my way and I’d take my own decisions
according to my opinion, but in this case I can’t because I have to.
It’s easy for them to squash you like this because as I’ve said to you,
you are a small fish.
Business support
Q: What is going to happen to these people and these small kids? Where
are they going to go? And the pregnant women? They are already
extremely distressed
A: (Captain Ragavan) Well, we got the instruction to remove these
people here, to take away the tents and stuff like that from Business
Support and Itemp as well.
This is not something that we feel good about.
Q: You don’t feel good about getting 47 people from DRC, making them
miserable. One woman is now in the hospital.
August 25, 2009 at 4:52 pm
What is it going to tkae to get rid of this south African Hitler
He seems to have a huge amount of power for a city manager.
Someone needs to put him back in his cage
Mr Zuma any suggestions?
August 25, 2009 at 4:52 pm
What is it going to tkae to get rid of this south African Hitler
He seems to have a huge amount of power for a city manager.
Someone needs to put him back in his cage
Mr Zuma any suggestions?